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Werner Heisenberg Talk With Einstein
In the spring of 1926, just after Heisenberg, working with Max Born and Pascual Jordan, published their new matrix mechanics, he lectured at the University of Berlin. Einstein attended the lecture and invited the young Heisenberg to go for a walk after the lecture. Heisenberg recalled their talk.
Quantum Mechanics and a Talk with Einstein (1925-1926)
During these critical years, atomic physics developed much as
Niels Bohr had predicted it would during our walk over the
Hain Mountain. The difficulties and inner contradictions that
stood in the way Of a true understanding of atoms and their
stability seemed unlikely to be removed or even reduced—on the
contrary, they became still more acute. All attempts to surmount
them with the conceptual tools of the older physics appeared
doomed to failure.
There was, for instance, the discovery by the American physicist,
Arthur Holly Compton, that light (or more precisely X-rays)
changes its wavelength when radiation is scattered by free
electrons.
Heisenberg did not yet accept Einstein's 1905 idea of light quanta localized as particles. It is very likely that Bohr also still had his doubts about wave-particle duality.
This result could be explained by Einstein's hypothesis
that light consists of small corpuscles or packets of energy, moving
through space with great velocity and occasionally—e.g.,
during the process of scattering—colliding with an electron. On
the other hand, there was a great deal of experimental evidence
to suggest that the only basic difference between light and radio
waves was that the former are of shorter length; in other words,
that a light ray is a wave and not a stream of particles. Moreover,
attempts by the Dutch physicist, Ornstein, to determine the
intensity ratio of spectral lines in a so-called multiplet had produced
very strange results. These ratios can be determined with
the help of Bohr's theory. Now it appeared that, although the
formulae derived from Bohr's theory were incorrect, a minor
modification produced new formulae that fitted the experimental
results. And so physicists gradually learned to adapt themselves
to a host of difficulties. They became used to the fact that the
concepts and models of classical physics were not rigorously
applicable to processes on the atomic scale. On the other hand,
they had come to appreciate that, by skillful use of the resulting
freedom, they could, on occasion, guess the correct mathematical
formulation of some of the details.
In the seminars run by Max Born in Göttingen during the
summer of 1924, we had begun to speak of a new quantum
mechanics that would one day oust the old Newtonian
mechanics, and whose vague outlines could already be discerned
here and there.
Niels Bohr's correspondence principle was used to guess the "quantum conditions' that were the foundations of the old and new quantum theories.
Even during the subsequent winter term, which I
once again spent in Copenhagen, trying to develop Kramers'
theory of dispersion phenomena, our efforts were devoted not so
much to deriving the correct mathematical relationships as to
guessing them from similarities with the formulae of classical
theory.
If I think back on the state of atomic theory in those months, I
always remember a mountain walk with some friends from the
Youth Movement, probably in the late autumn of 1924. It took
us from Kreuth to Lake Achen. In the valley the weather was
poor, and the mountains were veiled in clouds. During the
climb, the mist had begun to close in upon us, and, after a
time, we found ourselves in a confused jumble of rocks and
undergrowth with no signs of a track. We decided to keep
climbing, though we felt rather anxious about getting down
again if anything went wrong. All at once the mist became so
dense that we lost sight of one another completely, and could
keep in touch only by shouting. At the same time it grew
brighter overhead, and the light suddenly changed color. We
were obviously under a patch of moving fog. Then, quite suddenly,
we could see the edge of a steep rock face, straight ahead
of us, bathed in bright sunlight. The next moment the fog had
closed up again, but we had seen enough to take our bearings
from the map. After a further ten minutes of hard climbing we
were standing in the sun—at saddle height above the sea of fog.
To the south we could see the peaks of the Sonnwend Mountains
and beyond them the snowy tops of the Central Alps, and we all
breathed a sigh of relief.
In atomic physics, likewise, the winter of 1924-1925 had obviously
brought us to a realm where the fog was thick but where
some light had begun to filter through and held out the promise
of exciting new vistas.
In the summer term of 1925, when I resumed my research work
at the University of Göttingen—since July 1924 I had been
Privatdozent at that university—I made a first attempt to guess
what formulae would enable one to express the line intensities of
the hydrogen spectrum, using more or less the same methods that
had proved so fruitful in my work with Kramers in Copenhagen.
Kramers used the unobservable electronic orbit frequencies to predict spectral line intensities. At the suggestion of his friend Otto, Heisenberg substituted the spectral line frequencies, while still using Kramers' method of Fourier series analysis.
He could not solve the hydrogen atom, so Heisenberg chose to work on the simple harmonic oscillator.
This attempt led to a dead end—I found myself in an impenetrable
morass of complicated mathematical equations, with no
way out. But the work helped to convince me of one thing: that
one ought to ignore the problem of electron orbits inside the
atom, and treat the frequencies and amplitudes associated with
the line intensities as perfectly good substitutes. In any case, these
magnitudes could be observed directly, and as my friend Otto had
pointed out when expounding on Einstein's theory during our
bicycle tour round Lake Walchensee, physicists must consider
none but observable magnitudes when trying to solve the atomic
puzzle. My attempt to apply this scheme to the hydrogen atom
had come to grief on the complications of this particular problem.
Accordingly, I looked for a simpler mathematical system and
found it in the pendulum, whose oscillations could serve as a
model for the molecular vibrations treated by atomic physics. My
work along these lines was advanced rather than retarded by an
unfortunate personal setback.
Toward the end of May 1925,1 fell so ill with hay fever that I
had to ask Born for fourteen days' leave of absence. I made
straight for Heligoland, where I hoped to recover quickly in the
bracing sea air, far from blossoms and meadows. On my arrival I
must have looked quite a sight with my swollen face; in any case,
my landlady took one look at me, concluded that I had been in a
fight and promised to nurse me through the aftereffects. My room
was on the second floor, and since the house was built high up on
the southern edge of the rocky island, I had a glorious view over
the village, and the dunes and the sea beyond. As I sat on my
balcony, I had ample opportunity to reflect on Bohr's remark
that part of infinity seems to lie within the grasp of those who
look across the sea.
Apart from daily walks and long swims, there was nothing in
Heligoland to distract me from my problem, and so I made much
swifter progress than I would have done in Gottingen. A few
days were enough to jettison all the mathematical ballast that
invariably encumbers the beginning of such attempts, and to
arrive at a simple formulation of my problem. Within a few days
more, it had become clear to me what precisely had to take the
place of the Bohr-Sommerfeld quantum conditions in an atomic
physics working with none but observable magnitudes. It also
became obvious that with this additional assumption I had
introduced a crucial restriction into the theory.
In the failed Bohr-Kramers-Slater theory of 1924, the principle of conservation of energy had been denied. Einstein objected, and experiments confirmed he was right
Then I noticed
that there was no guarantee that the new mathematical scheme
could be put into operation without contradictions. In particular,
it was completely uncertain whether the principle of the
conservation of energy would still apply, and I knew only too
well that my scheme stood or fell by that principle.
Other than that, however, several calculations showed that the
scheme seemed quite self-consistent. Hence I concentrated on
demonstrating that the conservation law held, and one evening I
reached the point where I was ready to determine the individual
terms in the energy table, or, as we put it today, in the energy
matrix, by what would now be considered an extremely clumsy
series of calculations. When the first terms seemed to accord with
the energy principle, I became rather excited, and I began to
make countless arithmetical errors. As a result, it was almost
three o'clock in the morning before the final result of my computations
lay before me. The energy principle had held for all the
terms, and I could no longer doubt the mathematical consistency
and coherence of the kind of quantum mechanics to which my
calculations pointed. At first, I was deeply alarmed. I had the
feeling that, through the surface of atomic phenomena, I was
looking at a strangely beautiful interior, and felt almost giddy at
the thought that I now had to probe this wealth of mathematical
structures nature had so generously spread out before me. I was
far too excited to sleep, and so, as a new day dawned, I made for
the southern tip of the island, where I had been longing to climb
a rock jutting out into the sea. I now did so without too much
trouble, and waited for the sun to rise.
What I saw during that night in Heligoland was admittedly
not very much more than the sunlit rock edge I had glimpsed in
the autumn of 1924, but when I reported my results to Wolfgang
Pauli, generally my severest critic, he warmly encouraged me to
continue along the path I had taken.
Heisenberg completely ignores the wave mechanics developed by Erwin Schrödinger in 1926, which was also part of Dirac's transformation theory that is the core of quantum mechanics today
In Göttingen, Max Born
and Pascual Jordan took stock of the new possibilities, and in
Cambridge the young English mathematician Paul Dirac developed
his own methods for solving the problems involved, and
after only a few months the concentrated efforts of these men led
to the emergence of a coherent mathematical framework, one
that promised to embrace all the multifarious aspects of atomic
physics. Of the extremely intensive work which kept us breathless
for a few months I shall say nothing here; instead, I shall report
my talk with Albert Einstein following a lecture on the new
quantum mechanics in Berlin.
At the time, the University of Berlin was considered the stronghold
of physics in Germany, with such renowned figures as
Planck, Einstein, von Laue and Nernst. It was here that Planck
had discovered quantum theory and that Rubens had confirmed
it by special measurements of thermal radiation; it was here that
Einstein had formulated his general theory of relativity and his
theory of gravitation in 1916. At the center of scientific life was
the so-called physics colloquium, which probably went back to
the time of Helmholtz and which was generally attended by the
entire staff of the physics department. In the spring of 1926,1 was
invited to address this distinguished body on the new quantum
mechanics, and since this was my first chance to meet so
many famous men, I took good care to give a clear account of the
concepts and mathematical foundations of what was then a most
unconventional theory. I apparently managed to arouse Einstein's
interest for he invited me to walk home with him so that
we might discuss the new ideas at greater length.
On the way, he asked about my studies and previous research.
As soon as we were indoors, he opened the conversation with a
question that bore on the philosophical background of my recent
work.
There is a great difference between not being able to observe electron paths and declaring they do nor exist
"What you have told us sounds extremely strange. You
assume the existence of electrons inside the atom, and you are
probably quite right to do so. But you refuse to consider their
orbits, even though we can observe electron tracks in a cloud
chamber. I should very much like to hear more about your
reasons for making such strange assumptions."
Heisenberg substitutes the observable frequencies of spectral line emissions - as "representatives" of the unobservable electron orbits
"We cannot observe electron orbits inside the atom," I must
have replied, "but the radiation which an atom emits during
discharges enables us to deduce the frequencies and corresponding
amplitudes of its electrons. After all, even in the older physics
wave numbers and amplitudes could be considered substitutes
for electron orbits. Now, since a good theory must be based on
directly observable magnitudes, I thought it more fitting to restrict
myself to these, treating them, as it were, as representatives
of the electron orbits."
"But you don't seriously believe," Einstein protested, "that
none but observable magnitudes must go into a physical theory?"
"Isn't that precisely what you have done with relativity?" I
asked in some surprise. "After all, you did stress the fact that it is
impermissible to speak of absolute time, simply because absolute
time cannot be observed; that only clock readings, be it in the
moving reference system or the system at rest, are relevant to the
determination of time."
"Possibly I did use this kind of reasoning," Einstein admitted,
"but it is nonsense all the same. Perhaps I could put it
more diplomatically by saying that it may be heuristically useful
to keep in mind what one has actually observed. But on principle,
it is quite wrong to try founding a theory on observable
magnitudes alone. In reality the very opposite happens. It is the
theory which decides what we can observe.
Observations begin as measurements, new information recorded in the apparatus, which are later sensed by the experimenter, and recorded in the experimenter's conscious memory (the ERR).
"You must appreciate
that observation is a very complicated process. The phenomenon
under observation produces certain events in our measuring
apparatus. As a result, further processes take place in the apparatus,
which eventually and by complicated paths produce sense
impressions and help us to fix the effects in our consciousness.
Along this whole path—from the phenomenon to its fixation in
our consciousness—we must be able to tell how nature functions,
must know the natural laws at least in practical terms, before we
can claim io have observed anything at all. Only theory, that is,
knowledge of natural laws, enables us to deduce the underlying
phenomena from our sense impressions.
Heisenberg's words put in Einstein's mouth here—from the phenomenon to its fixation in
our consciousness—sounds more like Niels Bohr's language and philosophy than that of Einstein.
When we claim that we
can observe something new, we ought really to be saying that,
although we are about to formulate new natural laws that do not
agree with the old ones, we nevertheless assume that the existing
laws—covering the whole path from the phenomenon to our
consciousness—function in such a way that we can rely upon
them and hence speak of 'observations.'
"In the theory of relativity, for instance, we presuppose that,
even in the moving reference system, the light rays traveling from
the clock to the observer's eye behave more or less as we have
always expected them to behave. And in your theory, you quite
obviously assume that the whole mechanism of light transmission
from the vibrating atom to the spectroscope or to the eye works
just as one has always supposed it does, that is, essentially according
to Maxwell's laws. If that were no longer the case, you could
not possibly observe any of the magnitudes you call observable.
Your claim that you are introducing none but observable magnitudes
is therefore an assumption about a property of the theory
that you are trying to formulate. You are, in fact, assuming
that your theory does not clash with the old description of radiation
phenomena in the essential points. You may well be right, of
course, but you cannot be certain."
I was completely taken aback by Einstein's attitude, though I
found his arguments convincing. Hence I said: "The idea that a
good theory is no more than a condensation of observations in
accordance with the principle of thought economy surely goes
back to Mach, and it has, in fact, been said that your relativity
theory makes decisive use of Machian concepts. But what you
have just told me seems to indicate the very opposite. What am I
to make of all this, or rather what do you yourself think about
it?"
"It's a very long story, but we can go into it if you like.
Mach's concept of thought economy probably contains part of
the truth, but strikes me as being just a bit too trivial. Let me
first of all produce a few arguments in its favor. We obviously
grasp the world by way of our senses. Even when small children
learn to speak and to think, they do so by recognizing the possibility
of describing highly complicated but somehow related
sense impressions with a single word, for instance, the word 'ball.'
They learn it from adults and get the satisfaction that they can
make themselves understood. In other words, we may argue
that the formation of the word, and hence of the concept, 'ball' is
a kind of thought economy enabling the child to combine very
complicated sense impressions in a simple way. Here Mach does
not even enter into the question which mental or physical
predispositions must be satisfied in man—or the small child—
before the process of communication can be initiated. With
animals, this process works considerably less effectively, as everyone
knows, but we shan't talk about that now. Now Mach also
thinks that the formation of scientific theories, however complex,
takes place in a similar way. We try to order the phenomena, to
reduce them to a simple form, until we can describe what may be
a large number of them with the aid of a few simple concepts.
"All this sounds very reasonable, but we must nevertheless ask
ourselves in what sense the principle of mental economy is being
applied here. Are we thinking of psychological or of logical economy,
or, again, are we dealing with the subjective or the objective
side of the phenomena? When the child forms the concept
'ball,' does he introduce a purely psychological simplification in
that he combines complicated sense impressions by means of this
concept, or does this ball really exist? Mach would probably
answer that the two statements express one and the same fact.
But he would be quite wrong to do so. To begin with, the assertion
'The ball really exists' also contains a number of statements
about possible sense impressions that may occur in the future.
Now future possibilities and expectations make up a very important
part of our reality, and must not be simply forgotten.
Moreover, we ought to remember that inferring concepts and
things from sense impressions is one of the basic presuppositions
of all our thought. Hence, if we wanted to speak of nothing but
sense impressions, we should have to rid ourselves of our language
and thought. In other words, Mach rather neglects the fact
that the world really exists, that our sense impressions are based
on something objective.
"I have no wish to appear as an advocate of a naive form of
realism; I know that these are very difficult questions, but then I
consider Mach's concept of observation also much too naive. He
pretends that we know perfectly well what the word 'observe'
means, and thinks this exempts him from having to discriminate
between 'objective' and 'subjective' phenomena. No wonder his
principle has so suspiciously commercial a name: 'thought economy.'
His idea of simplicity is much too subjective for me. In
reality, the simplicity of natural laws is an objective fact as well,
and the correct conceptual scheme must balance the subjective
side of this simplicity with the objective. But that is a very difficult
task. Let us rather return to your lecture.
"I have a strong suspicion that, precisely because of the
problems we have just been discussing, your theory will one day
get you into hot water. I should like to explain this in greater
detail. When it comes to observation, you behave as if everything
can be left as it was, that is, as if you could use the old descriptive
language.
In cases like the cloud chamber we observe the path of the electron. Einstein says simply that there must still be an objective path inside the atom, even if the space is so constrained that we cannot make measurements/observations
"In that case, however, you will also have to say: in a
cloud chamber we can observe the path of the electrons. At the
same time, you claim that there are no electron paths inside the
atom. This is obvious nonsense, for you cannot possibly get rid of
the path simply by restricting the space in which the electron
moves,"
I tried to come to the defense of the new quantum mechanics.
Heisenberg reverts to Bohr's idea that we must use our traditional classical language to describe our experiments
"For the time being, we have no idea in what language we must
speak about processes inside the atom. True, we have a mathematical
language, that is, a mathematical scheme for determining
the stationary states of the atom or the transition probabilities
from one state to another, but we do not know—at least not in
general—how this language is related to that of classical physics.
And, of course, we need this connection if we are to apply this
theory to experiments in the first place. For when it comes to
experiments, we invariably speak in the traditional language.
We cannot understand quantum mechanics until we can explain it using our traditional classical language to describe the path of an electron
"Hence I cannot really claim that we have 'understood' quantum
mechanics. I assume that the mathematical scheme works, but no
link with the traditional language has been established so far.
And until that has been done, we cannot hope to speak of the
path of the electron in the cloud chamber without inner contradictions.
Hence it is probably much too early to solve the difficulties
you have mentioned."
"Very well, I will accept that," Einstein said. "We shall talk
about it again in a few years' time. But perhaps I may put
another question to you. Quantum theory as you have expounded
it in your lecture has two distinct faces. On the one
hand, as Bohr himself has rightly stressed, it explains the stability
of the atom; it causes the same forms to reappear time and again.
On the other hand, it explains that strange discontinuity or
inconstancy of nature which we observe quite clearly when we
watch flashes of light on a scintillation screen. These two aspects
are obviously connected. In your quantum mechanics you will
have to take both into account, for instance when you speak of
the emission of light by atoms. You can calculate the discrete
energy values of the stationary states. Your theory can thus
account for the stability of certain forms that cannot merge continuously
into one another, but must differ by finite amounts
and seem capable of permanent re-formation.
Here Einstein introduces his light quantum, first hypothesized 21 years earlier, and proved to explain the Compton effect, as Heisenberg noted earlier.
"But what happens
during the emission of light? As you know, I suggested that,
when an atom drops suddenly from one stationary energy value
to the next, it emits the energy difference as an energy packet, a
so-called light quantum. In that case, we have a particularly clear
example of discontinuity. Do you think that my conception is
correct? Or can you describe the transition from one stationary
state to another in a more precise way?"
In my reply, I must have said something like this:
Heisenberg says simply that he an Bohr "Do not know." He cannot say that he believes in Einstein's light quanta, although by this time most quantum physicists had come to accept the ides of photons as particles, as well as their having wave properties!
"Bohr has
taught me that one cannot describe this process by means of the
traditional concepts, i.e., as a process in time and space. With
that, of course, we have said very little, no more, in fact, than
that we do not know. Whether or not I should believe in light
quanta, I cannot say at this stage. Radiation quite obviously
involves the discontinuous elements to which you refer as light
quanta.
Heisenberg could not then see how his quantum mechanics, with its emphasis on the material particle properties of energy and momentum, can explain wave properties, which Bohr sees as described in terms of the complementary properties of space and time
"On the other hand, there is a continuous element, which
appears, for instance, in interference phenomena, and which is
much more simply described by the wave theory of light. But you
are of course quite right to ask whether quantum mechanics has
anything new to say on these terribly difficult problems. I believe
that we may at least hope that it will one day.
"I could, for instance, imagine that we should obtain an interesting
answer if we considered the energy fluctuations of an atom
during reactions with other atoms or with the radiation field. If
the energy should change discontinuously, as we expect from
your theory of light quanta, then the fluctuation, or, in more
precise mathematical terms, the mean square fluctuation, would
be greater than if the energy changed continuously. I am inclined
to believe that quantum mechanics would lead to the
greater value, and so establish the discontinuity. On the other
hand, the continuous element, which appears in interference
experiments, must also be taken into account. Perhaps one must
imagine the transitions from one stationary state to the next as so
many fade-outs in a film. The change is not sudden—one picture
gradually fades while the next comes into focus so that, for a
time, both pictures become confused and one does not know
which is which. Similarly, there may well be an intermediate state
in which we cannot tell whether an atom is in the upper or the
lower state."
Einstein is quite correct that Heisenberg is talking about what we subjectively know—epistemology— and not about what is—ontology—what is going on in objective reality
""You are moving on very thin ice," Einstein warned me. "For
you are suddenly speaking of what we know about nature and no
longer about what nature really does. In science we ought to be
concerned solely with what nature does. It might very well be
that you and I know quite different things about nature. But
who would be interested in that? Perhaps you and I alone. To
everyone else it is a matter of complete indifference. In other
words, if your theory is right, you will have to tell me sooner or
later what the atom does when it passes from one stationary state
to the next."
"Perhaps," I may have answered. "But it seems to me that you
are using language a little too strictly. Still, I do admit that
everything that I might now say may sound like a cheap excuse.
So let's wait and see how atomic theory develops."
Einstein gave me a skeptical look. "How can you really have so
much faith in your theory when so many crucial problems
remain completely unsolved?"
I must certainly have thought for a long time before I produced
my answer. "I believe, just like you, that the simplicity of
natural laws has an objective character, that it is not just the
result of thought economy. If nature leads us to mathematical
forms of great simplicity and beauty—by forms I am referring to
coherent systems of hypotheses, axioms, etc., to forms that no
one has previously encountered, we cannot help thinking that
they are 'true,' that they reveal a genuine feature of nature. It
may be that these forms also cover our subjective relationship to
nature, that they reflect elements of our own thought economy.
But the mere fact that we could never have arrived at these forms
by ourselves, that they were revealed to us by nature, suggests
strongly that they must be part of reality itself, not just of our
thoughts about reality.
"You may object that by speaking of simplicity and beauty I
am introducing aesthetic criteria of truth, and I frankly admit
that I am strongly attracted by the simplicity and beauty of the
mathematical schemes with which nature presents us. You must
have felt this, too: the almost frightening simplicity and wholeness
of the relationships which nature suddenly spreads out
before us and for which none of us was in the least prepared.
And this feeling is something completely different from the joy
we feel when we have done a set task particularly well. That is
one reason why I hope that the problems we have been discussing
will be solved in one way or another. In the present case, the
simplicity of the mathematical scheme has the further consequence
that it ought to be possible to think up many experiments
whose results can be predicted from the theory. And if the
actual experiments should bear out the predictions, there is little
doubt but that the theory reflects nature accurately in this particular
realm."
"Control by experiment," Einstein agreed, "is, of course, an
essential prerequisite of the validity of any theory. But one can't
possibly test everything. That is why I am so interested in your
remarks about simplicity. Still, I should never claim that I really
understood what is meant by the simplicity of natural laws."
After talking about the role of truth criteria in physics for
quite a bit longer, I took my leave. I next met Einstein a year
and a half later, at the Solvay Congress in Brussels, where the
epistemological and philosophical bases of quantum theory once
again formed the subject of the most exciting discussions.
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